Alright Killer Queen, I read through your post and I have a few things to say. This is not a personal attack on you or your thoughts, but I want to point some things out for argument's sake.
I’m noticing some gross over-generalizations about women and that some of the things I said were misconstrued in your response. First off, you started your argument with:
“ First of all Kiki claims that the guy she is talking to objectifies women. With that comment alone Kiki is opening a Pandora’s Box of general gender issues that stand between men and women. “
I understand your point of view on that, however, I made no such claim to my coworker that he objectifies women, he came outright and said; I objectify women. This is how it went down;
“It started out with him talking about how he objectifies women. He rationalized it by saying "Well woman dress up to show off their bodies, so they must want to be objectified!" And I said, "That's not true. We dress up to look good so we have confidence in ourselves, not to be objectified by men. "
Secondly, you go on to say;
”But on a certain level don’t all women expect to be objectified somewhat by men? Kiki needs to realize that yes, women do dress up in order to feel more confident about themselves, but how do we gain confidence, by receiving attention!”
Red flag!!! I see a big difference between being objectified and seeking attention. The word objectify is defined as: depersonalized, make impersonal or present as an object. I don’t know any women who like to be discredited to the point of being seen as merely an object. We are not just boobs, there’s a lot more to it than that. If a guy thinks I’m attractive and would like to tell me so, I will not be offended. However, if a guy walking behind me yells, “nice ass,” I don’t love that! I am starting to wonder if people truly understand what objectifying means. Although I can’t speak for all women here, I feel pretty confident in the fact that most women do not condone or enjoy objectifying behavior.
The other issue I have with this, which can’t and won’t be changed, is it’s yet another double standard when it comes to women. Men can’t really dress in a way that’s “revealing,” so there’s not a point when we can say “obviously they want us to check them out and objectify them.”
The other thing I dislike, that I pick up from a couple of the responses to this is the fact that it is assumed that any girl wearing a low-cut shirt is jonesin’ for a one night stand, because in Nicko’s words, “if she's already showing that much skin why not show the rest?” Sometimes when I go out, I wear shirts that are cute and may show some skin, but that doesn’t mean I’m cruising for a booty call at all.
Also, compliments do lead to confidence, but I can tell you now, honking or whistling generally generates an eye roll from a woman, and again, I am not speaking for every woman here, just speaking from what I’ve experienced in my own life. While I might laugh off a forward advance like that, if the guy who honked at me then chased me down the street trying to talk to me, I would not let him approach me.
At the end, you make a good point. You talk about how we shouldn’t generalize men and women;
“I think what is most important to keep in mind is that technically speaking everyone has an opinion related to the opposite sex that is true, but what’s most important to keep in mind is that we cannot generalize what it means to be female or male, what it means to be attracted to one another, what it means to be in a relationship. So many of these characteristics are not based upon gender, but rather individual morals and values.”
However, throughout your response, you do generalize about women and what they like. I agree with you that women do EXPECT to be objectified by men on some level, but I don’t necessarily with you on what you say objectification is, because you use two contrasting examples, one; you’re beautiful (which to me is a compliment and not an objectification) and two; nice legs (which is an objectification unless a previous relationship with the other person has already been established.)
You end with;
“This conversation between these two people is so superficial and so generic that I think we’ve all heard it before. To even have this conversation is demoralizing what this class is about. To bring up the subject of “sex sells” or the objectification and impossible standards for women’s beauty that society has grown into is a subject that I would rather not discuss, especially since these standards and norms have been part of our society for so long that I personally think it’s about time that we got over that hill and start working on our self confidence.”
The implication that our conversation is superficial and generic is somewhat true. The part about it being “demoralizing” to the class also may be true, but obviously I wasn’t thinking in the context of my gender class when I was conversing with a friend at work. I do realize in re-reading parts of the article that I did make broad sweeping statements about men and women and what they like, and this was probably not the correct way to handle it. However, again, I wasn’t participating in the conversation as a scholarly critical thinker, I was just chatting with a dude at work.
Finally, I think that your idea about women working on their self-confidence is a good one, but a very difficult thing to achieve. Because men and women gain so many of their ideas when they are so young, it seems almost impossible to shield them from the influence of societal beauty. I know that I had doubts about myself and my body as a young child after watching tv and looking at magazines, before I even really knew or understood the concept of self confidence. It’s a tough situation, and it’s hard to find a balance.
Alright everyone, I’m climbing off the soapbox for now. Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
1 comment:
Kiki-
We are obviously two very different people who have very different ideas about what it means to be a woman and how we feel about being women.
To you, objectifying women means outwardly and perhaps vocally asserting a personal comment about someone based purely on their physical attributes. For me, objectifying someone means just that, looking at a human as if they are an object. To you, self confidence means dressing up to feel better about how you look. To me, self confidence is knowing that I’m me, and I love being me no matter what anyone has to say about it. Objectification is an external concept, which means that the person acting objectively is not considering the other’s emotions, their perceptions, their self confidence or how that person feels when they are objectified. So why should we care about this topic? I think it’s obvious that I’m the pessimist in this situation, I’ve come to accept that yes, people do say things that are inappropriate but I can’t change that, I can’t make people be less ignorant. You on the other hand are the optimist, and I appreciate that you look at this situation and want to search for a solution. I think that’s great and if more people thought like you do, more problems would get solved.
I think for both of us we view objectification as ignorant, but you take it personally while I let it roll of my shoulders. Of course having someone yell at you or stare at you is inappropriate and annoying, but I think part of being a woman is learning that what other people think about us doesn’t matter at all. I think so many women get wrapped up in what they look like and how they appear to other people that they create this image that is far from who they really are. These images are so generalized that when you go downtown on the weekend you can look around and see twenty girls who look and act the same way.
Another point is that objectification has its functional aspects. Instead of looking at it as always a bad thing, let’s focus a little bit about how it can help people. Again, some girls love that kind of attention. Some girls learn more about themselves through the process, they decide what kind of man (or woman) they want to enter relationships with, they generate an identity based on how they receive these types of comments, they can develop a sense of humor about it, they can decide that they want to instigate change. I think instead of always looking toward what we deem as negative in society, we should also look at what purpose it serves or how it can be considered functional.
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